Kuroiban

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Originally posted by Soshi Eido

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Originally posted by Shosuro Noname
Regardless, it's our dirty tricks military - note the whole "if this makes it illegal, cancel it" part of the fun. As a downside, though, Ninjitsu seems incompatible with paying 2 less gold for a clanner. \r\n

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\r\n\r\nI have no idea what this is about. Considering the stronghold ability already takes clan discount into account, Shiro no Soshi is astounding, allowing you to play with zero boxables because everyone is one. No ninja is expensive.\r\n\r\nThe one downside is that the camo ninja aren't Scorpion- yet.\r\n

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\r\n\r\n...tell you what, let's just pretend I didn't say that? Heh. No idea what I was thinking there. [:I]\r\n\r\nSomething else to consider:\r\n\r\nKamnan's ability lets you pay 2 gold to ditch someone else's face-down Ninja.\r\n\r\n

Yes, it applies to pretty much all those abilities, and yes, it's a noticeable downgrade in power. The question of whether scorpion are downgraded more than other factions is pretty much irrelevant: the interesting question is whether the downgrade makes the abilities too weak for the personalities to be balanced and playable. \r\n\r\nAll of the rules are being tested (although some are pretty much given to be in lotus) the 'everything is by default once per turn' is still potentially subject to revision and change. If it nerfs too many cards too much, maybe it should be changed. The lotus rules and pdf's have been being updated and changed rapidly; personally I don't currently have an opinion on whether the abilities are fine with the rule as is or whether there needs to be alterations.

almost forgot: where was it stated how Ninjutsu works, if it has?

Its in the sticky at the top of the forum with all the other rules alterations:\r\nhttp://www.alderac.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=22212\r\n

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Ninjutsu \r\n\r\nPersonalities with the Ninjutsu trait are treated specially at certain times while face-down. While face-down in play or in a Province, a Ninjutsu Personality is treated as a Personality with 2F, 3C, an Honor Requirement of "-", a Gold cost of 4, a Personal Honor of 0, and the Ninja trait. While in play, he may attach Items, Spells, and Followers regardless of restrictions on those cards, and he may attach Spells without being a Shugenja. You may freely look at the faces of face-down Ninjutsu Personalities while you control them. \r\n\r\nWhen a face-down Ninjutsu Personality in play would be flipped face-up, check all play restrictions, including Honor Requirement, of the face-up side. If that Personality cannot join you, discard him and everything attached to him instead of flipping him. Otherwise, flip him, then discard all cards illegally attached to him. Flipping face-up does not count as entering play. The Personality retains all existing effects. \r\n\r\nPersonalities may not be face-down in the discard pile. \r\n\r\nIn addition, all players have the following abilities: \r\n\r\nOpen: Any number of times per turn, pay the Ninjutsu value of a face-down Ninjutsu Personality you control: Turn the Personality face-up. \r\n\r\nReaction: Any number of times per turn, after an action targets a face-down Ninjutsu Personality you control, pay his Ninjutsu value: Turn the Personality face-up. If he is now an illegal target for the action, negate its effects on him.

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Hmmm... let's say, for example, my face down Ninja attaches a writ attachable only by courtiers... what's to stop him from actually using it whilst face down? Naturally he can't cast a spell but anything else that doesn't have specific requirements to use?

quite interesting. makes certain over-costed Ninja worth playing.\r\n\r\nis that in a restricted area of the forums? I can't open the page.

Another thing in our favor is the new seppuku rule:\r\n\r\n• Samurai and Courtier Personalities you control may perform the following action: \r\n\r\nPolitical Reaction: Even if this Personality is bowed, before you lose Honor as a direct result of an action or effect that targeted this Personality or from an action he performed: Reduce the loss to 1 point. This Personality commits seppuku. \r\n\r\nThat's right, it's officially political, and it's officially a react.\r\n\r\nOh, and for added fun, you can apparently interrupt his final haiku and challenge him to a duel for talking too much.

As far as 'unplayable' is concerned...\r\n\r\nYou guys need to look at a few things. I think we have quite a bit of synergy with the personality base in Lotus. Check this out:\r\n\r\nBayushi Saya (only non-Lotus Edition personality)\r\nBayushi Shintaro\r\nShosuro Mikado\r\nShosuro Maru\r\nMini-Shame Shug/Court\r\nSoul of Taberu exp (non-unique)\r\n\r\nThat's a fine base for a Political Control deck, come Lotus. If you include Paneki for a win condition, you have the following synergy:\r\n\r\nRuined KB + Underhand + Saya = auto-dishonored Personality\r\nOnce dishonored, Mini-Shame can keep them at their starting family honor, or gain you 3 honor a turn (if using the Sensei, which doesn't hurt the deck)\r\nShintaro can keep people locked.\r\nMikado goes to fetch the neat Political actions.\r\nSoul of Taberu exp locks out other sources of honor gain for them.\r\n\r\nTrue, Limited will get hurt because Saya is something of a linchpin in this deck, but if you think Limited L5R is going to be good... you might want to reconsider.\r\n\r\nThis is something like old-school Scorpion dishonor control, from Jade. I for one am extremely happy to see it coming back, as this is an old old friend of mine. ;)

Didn't Scorpion used to have to bribe tournament wins in those days, Tasogare? [:(!] I can understand that maybe it was a fun deck to play, but doesn't escape the fact that it was a proven failure as a competive archetype.

I don't know... I never won any major tournaments, Mikey, but I didn't play in many. I know I played well, though.\r\n\r\nReally, Mikey, you should know better than to try to compare environments so radically different as late Jade and and as-yet-unfinalized Lotus. I can point to quite a few differences that would invalidate any straight comparison.\r\n\r\nMainly, people seem to be crying that the sky is falling when they don't even know what color the sky is, yet. If I can see the bones of a very playable past deck archetype in the set in 5 minutes, that would seem to indicate to me that the people running around like headless chickens have spent less time than that looking over the set.\r\n\r\nIf I'm giving Lotus a chance, I think everyone else should, too.

From the thitry minutes I spent reading the playtest rules and the cards it looks to me like it is slowing down a bit (good); like Murai is getting his wish of Scorpion honor/dishonor (yay! I say).\r\n\r\nOTOH Large Farms are back, and now I can't deck about a thousand different decks with the ones I have

I think you are right Tasogare-san. I was very skeptical about the EoME personalities. They proven their worth by far. I am just a little upset about Sunetra losing the Tactian trait. Maybe Lotus will be very good for us. It can't be any worse than the start of diamond.

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Originally posted by Bayushi Mikey-G
Didn't Scorpion used to have to bribe tournament wins in those days, Tasogare? [:(!] I can understand that maybe it was a fun deck to play, but doesn't escape the fact that it was a proven failure as a competive archetype.\r\n

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\r\n\r\nThis was in the days of Corrupt Toturi Blitz and Finding Enlightenment Through Air. It hardly compares to the present situation, much less Lotus.\r\n\r\nAnd then...\r\n\r\nHeh. Heheheheh.\r\n\r\nWhile face-down in play or in a Province, a Ninjutsu Personality is treated as a Personality with 2F, 3C, an Honor Requirement of "-", a Gold cost of 4, a Personal Honor of 0, and the Ninja trait. \r\n\r\nAnd...\r\n\r\nBattle: Shuffle Yogo into your deck from the current battle: Search your Provinces and deck for any number of Personalities with a total Gold cost less than Yogo's. Bring them into play in your army, ignoring costs.\r\n\r\nThat's up to three ninja from our provinces with that SH, as a battle action, and it's done without bowing a single gold holding. Not terribly thrilled that it's a unique-based combo, but at least that's a power swing for it.

As an afterthought: Sunetra looks well balanced for the enviroment.\r\n\r\nThe governor is in, that is good, 'cause I have to respect a colegue .\r\n\r\nAmbush is back, sigh, now I need to get a set of those, again.\r\n\r\nNeed to see a rarity list for the edition, but I swear if the next political Scorpion deck (that can actually win) has over 50% nobrainer, staple rare cards I am switching to Phoenix.\r\n\r\nI like dueling, and am thinking that it will be fun to build a dueling Crane. As a side not go Otomo box!

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Originally posted by Bayushi_Kyo
I am just a little upset about Sunetra losing the Tactian trait.

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\r\nI'm more concerned at the loss of her "assign two ninja" ability. the honor loss from her ability will hurt but hey, we can swim.